Patrick Sweeney, the Fear Guru, previews the research, neuroscience, and framework in his newest book, Fear is Fuel. Patrick was an Olympic-level athlete and then technology entrepreneur until a wake-up call from a cancer diagnosis and brush with death. He realized that fear had governed his entire life and that to fulfill his mission as a father he must face down his biggest fears and begin to live life with courage.

“We have to find more fear. We should scare ourselves every single day.”

– Patrick Sweeney

Now Patrick is a full-time adventurer on a mission to help people transform through mindset, focus, and learning to recognize and harness fear. In this episode, Patrick shares his research on the neuroscience and physiology of fear and how it can be passed to the next generation epigenetically if not addressed. We also discuss the science of the brain’s courage center and how and how long it develops in our children.

“It was a life-changing event that led to what my mission is now – to help millions of other people learn how to use fear as fuel by understanding the neuroscience behind why our minds and bodies and selves do what they do.”

– Patrick Sweeney

PATRICK SWEENEY

As a typical over-achiever, Patrick took on the world in his 20’s training for the USA Olympic team in rowing, and then took on the business world in his 30’s and 40’s.

Patrick launched, funded and sold multiple companies in the technology space but 75 hour weeks and pushing his body to the limits left him feeling exhausted and unfulfilled.

In one moment, Patrick walked away. He’d just fought for his life on an operating table against a rare case of leukemia. In that moment of perspective as he stood outside the hospital, he decided to fight the fear of the unknown and embrace a different future. One that would bring fulfillment, joy and happiness.

In that moment, Patrick unlocked a new passion for adventure. As he systematically approached the things he feared and avoided, he unlocked greater levels of success and happiness in his own life. Out of that came the start of a fear framework. Today, he climbs mountains, breaks world records and travels the world speaking on taming fear and unlocking peak performance. His mission: help thousands of people make amazing transformations.

RESOURCES MENTIONED IN THIS EPISODE

SHOW HIGHLIGHTS

  • Paralyzing fear disguised as athletic and career achievement
  • Toxic guilt and shame grew into a fatal cancer diagnosis
  • Finding a better Why
  • Turning the biggest fear into a passion
  • Facing fears before they are passed along to children
  • At what age our kids’ Courage Center of the brain develops

“When I got to the other side of fear, I found all my dreams.”

– Patrick Sweeney

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We will learn from executives, athletes, entrepreneurs, academics, relationship experts, wealth managers, and warriors. Embrace success as a process – not a singular event – achieved through grit, resilience, and perseverance. Study strategies to achieve extraordinary results through simple consistent actions, accomplishing what others deem impossible.

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TRANSCRIPT

025_PatrickSweeney_Living with Fear transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

025_PatrickSweeney_Living with Fear was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2019.

Michael:
All right, hey, today I'm joined by Patrick Sweeney. So Patrick and I actually met by way of the Spartan Media Fest in Tahoe at the recent world championships. And I owe them a thank you, as well as ATP science for what brought us together. But as some of you guys know, a lot of what we're doing on this on this man of mastery concept and community and podcast is about growth and growth, specifically through adversity. Talking about mindset, which really a lot of times means getting outside your comfort zone and comfort zone means facing fear. So. Patrick Sweeney is the perfect guy to speak to us about this today. He is a a reformed technology entrepreneur, now full time adventurer, best selling author, and has an upcoming book, Pre-selling Now called Fear is Fuel. Patrick, welcome. Thanks for joining me.

Patrick:
Michael, thank you so much for having me here. It's really an honor.

Michael:
Yeah. Now, Honour's all mine. So you and I were talking a little bit off-line about fear and how fear once paralyzed you in life. And then you had a pretty dramatic wakeup call. I think as Tony Robbins says, people do things out of inspiration or desperation. So you had a big one that's really turned your life in a new direction and I believe changed your entire mindset and approach on fear as a as a paralyzing factor into something that's really fueled you and your family and your adventures. So do you mind giving us a little background on that?

Patrick:
No, Michael, I'm happy to share this story. And it's it's not uncommon. You know, I've I've been fortunate enough to be researching and doing this for, gosh, now six years full time and run into so many people who are in the same situation I was in. And I grew up very blue collar, Boston first generation Irish immigrant family. And I was the first kid in my family to go to college. And I had, you know, a childhood where my dad was away most the time trying to find, you know, trying to find work or a different jobs. And we we got you know, we we had Bisquick for dinner, Bisquick Pancakes for dinner, usually two or three times a week, because that's all that's all we could afford with this quick and water. And so I could eat pancakes till about twenty five years old and I swear it toward never eat them again. But but it's good because it helps keep me on the Kito diet. But to eat, you know, growing up because of how and where I grew up. And now I know the neuroscience behind it. I was terrified of everything. So I was the biggest sissy you could possibly imagine. And just afraid of, you know, social things, afraid of physical things, afraid of dying and all this stuff. And so because of that, like so many people, I had I had a tremendous amount of toxic guilt and shame.

Patrick:
And I didn't realize that that was creating the stress hormone called cortisol in my body almost nonstop. And so I I tried, like a lot of people do, to to cover it up. You know, I tried first with athletics. Then I tried with with it. I spent five years trying to Olympics and. And I thought all those things would bring me courage. And instead, it was really just creating this cocoon around me so people wouldn't really see what was inside, wouldn't really see the real me. So when I found out one morning, you know, after the gym that I I couldn't move my arm, I didn't I was too afraid to go to the doctor. And so I ended up waiting two or three days. And by the time I got there, he said, you know, I don't know what's going on, but we can handle it here at rest in hospital. We're going to send you to the best hospital and world's Johns Hopkins. And when I went to Hopkins, you know, the first thing the doctor asked me to write a one year old daughter at the time, and my wife was six months pregnant. And the doctor asked me if my affairs were in order.

Michael:
Well.

Patrick:
And as you know, Michael, that's that's pretty much doctor, speak for your fucked.

Michael:
Right.

Patrick:
So. So it was it was a huge wakeup call. And that was my, you know, my initial life changing event. And I went into Hopkins thinking I was about to die and in literally a part of me did. But when I got out, we can talk about some of the details around it. I just decided that that I was gonna choose courage. And I didn't want to I didn't want to live a life of regret like that, because I I saw the end of it very clearly. And. And all I felt was regret and shame and sadness. And so because of that, I made the choice to to try and figure out how to overcome or tackle or confront my fears. And my biggest fear at the time was flying. So. So I I took that head on. But it was it was that life changing event that led to what my mission is now. And that's to help millions of other people learn how to use fear as fuel by understanding the neuroscience behind why our minds and bodies and selves do what they do.

Michael:
Right. Okay. Yeah. Perfect. I'm glad you brought up the. That you are not just somebody who's learned by experience and anecdotally. So you really got deep in the science of this stuff. I already mentioned some of the physiology of the quarters all build up that you feel like led to some of your major medical problems. And, you know, I think a lot of the audience that people are tuning into this, they may know who you are or they're already interested in mindset and things like learning to harness fear, learning to lean into that fear, but may not know where to start. So it could be somebody who. Well, you know, I'll say it this way. You were in a way lucky enough to have that major medically, that rate that propelled you in a new direction in life and some other people aren't. Or maybe we would do it. And we seek out a death, ritual visualization or no obituary visualization that can help us. I don't know. Maybe have the bravery to get a new a new direction. But I think what a lot of us struggle with is whether it's those big sea change decisions in life or whether it's what we do on on a daily basis, more tactically, the concepts make sense. Yeah, we can interfere. But what does that really mean? And I think you've told me you have a platform that put some structure into not only the concepts, but applying them in reality.

Patrick:
And it's interesting how it came about, Michael, because after 35 years of just being a complete wimp, I got to the point where all of a sudden, after about six months after getting out of the hospital and starting flying lessons and doing some other things, it turns out courage is is one of my superpowers. And the flying story is a great example of that because it resonates with so many people out there. I saw a plane crash on the news when I was a kid and that created what I call in the book A Fear Frontier. And we all have these fear frontiers, these dramatic moments when we're a kid that shape our subconscious in. And that creation of that fear frontier led me to be to miss out on so much of life, on exchange programs, on spring breaks, on visiting friends and relatives, because I was terrified to fly. And so when I got over it, I said I said when I got out of Hopkins, I'm going to get over this fear of flying, even if I'm kicking and screaming, crying. When I do, I'm going to go get my private pilot's license. And the first you know, the first lesson, I probably went to the bathroom four times before you even got to the plane. And it was terrifying, like completely terrifying. The second lesson,

Michael:
She's.

Patrick:
You know, is a little more used to all the things that happened. But then we hit some turbulence. And I actually think I put myself just just

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
A little bit, not a ton.

Michael:
Just the oil.

Patrick:
And and and then the third or fourth flight, I fell in love with flying and I got my kind of pilot's license. I went on got my commercial rate and got my instant rating so I could find any weather. And now I do exactly what would have terrified me just 15 years ago. I I compete in acrobatics, so I'm upside down, spinning, taking five GS rocketing towards Europe. And it's such a sense of accomplishment and pride and and fulfillment that I wondered what what fear was locked away from other people. So your listeners out there, what is it locking away from you that you don't even know? Because when I got to the other side of fear, I found all my dreams. And, you know, now I split time between Germany, France and Boston. I travel all over the world speaking. And my mission is to help people discover what fear is hiding from them. And what they don't know out there that that exists for them. And so when I found out that that courage was becoming a superpower of mine, I was lucky enough a couple of years after that to ride in the charity race in Boston, a bike race. One hundred miler when about mile 30 we were settled into our pace. I end up right next to a neuroscientist from Tufts University. And I said, listen, I'd love to learn how this happened to me and why it took thirty five years for me to figure this shit out.

Patrick:
And he said, Okay, come on into my office. We're studying. You know, trauma and how we process memory. So I went and talked to him for, you know, an hour, had coffee. He said, you should really go see Scott or over at Harvard, he's doing all this PTSD studying. And you'd find it fascinating when s Scott or Scott said, oh, you need to talk to Mobile and. You know, doing all this research on how we consolidate memories and Bubba. And so after the fourth or fifth neuroscience that I neuroscientists that I got kicked around, too, I found all this new information that we've only discovered literally in the past five to seven years. So fascinating, like just the fact that now we're understanding how the mind works. And in a lot of it won't be published for a couple of years because the peer review process. And, you know, finishing up their grants, anything else. But but I got all the early information and that's what I put into the book, is that it is all of this in a format so that people don't have to take thirty five years of trial and error to figure this out, that they can say, you know, I'm going to do these two explorations and then I'm going to follow this framework. And that's pretty much the layout of the book. It's it's a lot more in-depth than that. But it really requires that we do a handful of explorations. And to do that, this

Michael:
Since

Patrick:
Is completely counterintuitive.

Michael:
January

Patrick:
We have to find more fear.

Michael:
Region.

Patrick:
So we had one of the things I tell people all the time is we should scare ourselves every single day.

Michael:
It makes sense to me, it makes sense to me. And it's amazing to me that you when you got out of the hospital and maybe, maybe when you face something that big, you decide the next thing you're going to face is really big to you. And after your biggest fear, you didn't chip away at the smallest stuff. First you went after the biggest one, fear of flying

Patrick:
That

Michael:
Fear.

Patrick:
Was it.

Michael:
And it's turned into not only something you can deal with, but an absolute passion and a love of yours.

Patrick:
Well, and that gets to my mission and everyone else out there who's wondering what their mission is. I think it's entirely dependent on your

Michael:
Information

Patrick:
Motivation. So

Michael:
Is.

Patrick:
If you're trying to be I know you talked with C.J. Kirk about about being in service to other people, and I think part of that is so true. So I was second at the Olympic trials in the single skull. And I think I could have won a gold medal in the Olympics if my if my motivation was better. I had three very successful tech companies, raised about 50 million bucks in venture capital and debt and sold a couple of them and did really well. But I think, you know, one of them that I that I sold to Early Out of fear is now at $3 billion dollar company. And and so I think because my motivation was faulty is what cost me dearly. So I think if you look at your mission, you're trying to figure out what your mission is, then finding that motivation that really would would allow you to go into a burning building. So for me, that turned out to be my daughter. And when I was in Hopkins

Michael:
It's.

Patrick:
And they told me, you know, there's a good chance I might not make it out. The only thing I could think about was my one year old daughter, Shannon. And was the memory of her dad gonna be this guy who's too afraid to get on a plane and take her to Disney World? Never mind. Never mind. Take her around the world. So that became my motivation

Michael:
It's.

Patrick:
To to learn how to fly. And then and then once I started to learn how to fly, it opened up a whole new world for me, Michael. And and just the act of facing that fear head on, feeling those those butterflies, feeling that noxious feel and feeling that the tightness in my chest and saying, OK, well, that's that's the fuel I need to power me through this stuff. And that's what's going to make my my body work better, my mind work better. And so I figured out how to use it. But that was you know, that was most definitely the tough way. I don't I don't recommend that people go into Hopkins and spend, you know, and start worrying about their will and ask their their friends who are priests to come in and go in and given their best.

Michael:
No, not. Not if you don't have to. But I can relate with what you mean about your daughter. I mean, that's that's super powerful. I have an 11 year old boy. I actually did a I did a podcast not too long ago about you mentioned Mark Devine, I think when we were off line. And and I did his twelve hour 20 X Bootcamp back in July. And man, I had a lot of anxiety, a lot of fear going into that thing. And and during the event, Mark asked me why I was there. And I talked about my son. And, you know, really, I said, my son's my hero. And I'm here to try to learn to be stronger and better for him. So, you know, sometimes we can go out and create the sort of fear events. Those crucibles, the things that I think you're saying, do something that causes you fear, that makes you scared every day. And I know you got something that you call the Fear Institute. So I think you're you're working up towards your framework and your your approach. But let me ask you this. If I just jumped to I know you deal a lot of corporations, executives, successful people. And I imagine when you ask about fears and hidden fears, you probably often get a reaction of, you know, I don't have any hidden fears

Patrick:
Yeah.

Michael:
Or I don't have any major fears,

Patrick:
Yeah, yeah.

Michael:
But I have to think there. Certainly amongst successful people and maybe especially among successful people, a lot a lot of us carry an imposter syndrome.

Patrick:
Yeah.

Michael:
I was talking to a buddy or name, but just recently, guys, a. And next, Navy SEAL, you know, these are some of the toughest guys in the world. And he's out in the commercial world now. And I was picking his brain just going, hey, man, sometimes, you know, sometimes I feel like I'm really working my butt off and. And, you know, it kind of bothers me if I feel like there's dead weight around me on the team. You came from such an elite background. Do you ever feel that way on the corporate world? And he goes. Are you kidding? I feel like I'm the dead weight.

Patrick:
Mm.

Michael:
There's

Patrick:
Yeah.

Michael:
No as possible. So, I mean, I don't know if you call that a fear, but I think that that fear of am I am I really good enough that I get here by law? Am I doing the right things that caused my success and can I keep it going is a hidden fear. A lot of people.

Patrick:
Yeah, for sure. I mean, you mentioned a bunch of the CEOs I've worked with. I have a story I like to tell a lot about this group of 10 CEOs who brought me in to spend a weekend with them. And look at some of the staff and their motivation was so they could create a culture of courage at their companies. A couple of more big publicly traded companies and two of the guys were billionaires who were there and showed up on their G5 50. And I said actually to one of them, I said, you know, we were all talking together. And I said, this weekend, we're gonna first start out working

Michael:
Cheers

Patrick:
On your hidden fears and

Michael:
To.

Patrick:
Your fear frontiers. I referred to it in the book. And any who looks up at me and like in the most cocky, serious way you could think of, he said, I don't have any hidden fears. And I said, Hey, genius. That's why they're called hidden

Michael:
Right.

Patrick:
In it. And so when we got into the exploration of the fear frontier, which I think is is one of the first things that people have to do if they're going to learn how to use that fear as fuel in

Michael:
Any

Patrick:
All facets.

Michael:
Assistance

Patrick:
So I can

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Talk

Michael:
The

Patrick:
A little

Michael:
Navy

Patrick:
Bit more about why seals

Michael:
Seals,

Patrick:
Because

Michael:
Several

Patrick:
I've worked with a bunch of Navy

Michael:
Sequences

Patrick:
Seals as well, and I'm good friends with Mark Devine.

Michael:
On

Patrick:
And I can talk about why a lot of them have trouble

Michael:
Integrating

Patrick:
Integrating, you know, after

Michael:
Astaire's

Patrick:
They get over

Michael:
To

Patrick:
The SEALs

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
And

Michael:
Going

Patrick:
After

Michael:
To

Patrick:
They

Michael:
Be

Patrick:
They

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Lose their identity

Michael:
Good

Patrick:
Of

Michael:
Thing

Patrick:
Being a seal and being part

Michael:
You

Patrick:
Of a brotherhood. And

Michael:
Did.

Patrick:
You know that that's their form 24/7 in the same living quarters. So that that's a whole different

Michael:
Shakes

Patrick:
Story. And I'm happy to shed some

Michael:
Me.

Patrick:
Light on it. But the important thing that we need to know is, is whatever year there are two parts

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Of the brain. There's one part of

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Our brain that's called the

Michael:
Big

Patrick:
Amygdala.

Michael:
Thing.

Patrick:
And it's a little almond

Michael:
She

Patrick:
Shaped gland that sits

Michael:
Says,

Patrick:
At

Michael:
And

Patrick:
The

Michael:
The

Patrick:
Base,

Michael:
Major

Patrick:
Your brain, and that handles

Michael:
Reason

Patrick:
Our fight flight or freeze

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
Instinct.

Michael:
And say

Patrick:
And this

Michael:
This

Patrick:
Is

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
Something

Michael:
What

Patrick:
That has

Michael:
Has

Patrick:
A 2

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Million year old

Michael:
Be.

Patrick:
Piece of software running on it. So the only

Michael:
Basically,

Patrick:
Thing the amygdala cares about

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Is procreating

Michael:
Raining

Patrick:
Your

Michael:
And

Patrick:
Genes

Michael:
James,

Patrick:
On to the next

Michael:
Next

Patrick:
Generation.

Michael:
Generation

Patrick:
It

Michael:
Does

Patrick:
Doesn't

Michael:
Give

Patrick:
Give a

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Shit

Michael:
Shit

Patrick:
About

Michael:
About

Patrick:
Anything

Michael:
Anything

Patrick:
Else,

Michael:
Else,

Patrick:
Doesn't

Michael:
You can

Patrick:
Care about creating

Michael:
Create

Patrick:
A

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Successful

Michael:
Successful

Patrick:
Business,

Michael:
Business

Patrick:
About having a happy relationship,

Michael:
Relationship.

Patrick:
About surfing the North Shore in Hawaii. None of that

Michael:
Matters

Patrick:
Matters

Michael:
To

Patrick:
To the amygdala.

Michael:
Me.

Patrick:
The only thing it cares about

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
Is procreating

Michael:
Raymond

Patrick:
The genes.

Michael:
James.

Patrick:
So

Michael:
So

Patrick:
The

Michael:
You

Patrick:
Amygdala

Michael:
Think.

Patrick:
Is what handles

Michael:
This

Patrick:
Our fight flight or freeze reaction. And when the amygdala

Michael:
Is.

Patrick:
Is triggered or what it does is try to hijack our upper order level of thinking on which sits on what's called our prefrontal cortex. And when it does that, we have a physiological change. Your body physically changes. So what I do and in all my keynote speeches or any more things is I'll try and figure out a way to scare the audience. And I did it yesterday and people were you know, people were sitting there realizing that they were in a safe room in Caesar's Palace. Nothing was going on. But their body had changed dramatically

Michael:
This

Patrick:
Just because

Michael:
Is.

Patrick:
Of something I did. And in what I wanted everyone to do is find what changes in their body they could notice. So that's the first exploration is to find your fear tells. So the more we scare ourselves, the more we figure out that when our

Michael:
Eight

Patrick:
Palms get sweaty or when our job gets tied, or when when our chest

Michael:
Years.

Patrick:
Starts palpitating or our voice cracks, those are individual, what I call fear tells and they're specific to each one of us. So when you get scared, you're going to have a very different reaction than when I get scared. But it's always the same reaction to the physical

Michael:
You

Patrick:
Physiology

Michael:
See

Patrick:
Of how that

Michael:
It.

Patrick:
Happens in our body. The fear cocktail that gets

Michael:
She's

Patrick:
Produced when

Michael:
Really

Patrick:
The amygdala

Michael:
Raise.

Patrick:
Activates it's adrenaline, cortisol, DHEA. All these hormones and enzymes. That's what causes those

Michael:
Changes

Patrick:
Changes. And so

Michael:
In

Patrick:
If

Michael:
Recent

Patrick:
We scare

Michael:
Years.

Patrick:
Ourselves every day,

Michael:
We

Patrick:
We

Michael:
Start

Patrick:
Start

Michael:
To

Patrick:
To notice what those changes

Michael:
Change.

Patrick:
Are. And that does two things, Michael. It

Michael:
So

Patrick:
Allows us

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
To understand

Michael:
Interesting

Patrick:
When there's an opportunity

Michael:
To me

Patrick:
Presented

Michael:
In

Patrick:
To

Michael:
This case

Patrick:
Us to

Michael:
To choose

Patrick:
Choose courage.

Michael:
From,

Patrick:
And

Michael:
At

Patrick:
It

Michael:
Least

Patrick:
Also gives

Michael:
Since.

Patrick:
Us a much higher level of mental capacity and physical capacity that we

Michael:
Which

Patrick:
Can use to

Michael:
Means.

Patrick:
Our advantage. And that's that that's the whole concept behind using fear as fuel is once we start to understand what those things are, will recognize it. And and it won't it won't end up making

Michael:
Yes.

Patrick:
Us take

Michael:
Taking

Patrick:
These these

Michael:
These

Patrick:
Knee jerk reactionary

Michael:
Extreme

Patrick:
Decisions.

Michael:
Decisions

Patrick:
Instead,

Michael:
Can

Patrick:
We

Michael:
Be.

Patrick:
Can be proactive and use that that fear as fuel. And that's really the key component to the book.

Michael:
Yeah, that makes sense to me. I and I, you know, another time we could go down a whole nother path here of, you know, caveman days, fight or flight was a it was a very healthy thing when the tiger came around the corner. And that didn't happen too frequently. But the way we live our modern lives, we have these these fears that are created and have this physiological effect. They're really not life or death fears, but our body is acting that way and acting that way very, very frequently, which becomes very inflammatory and very unhealthy. But. Quick, quick anecdote for you. So the way that I actually came to Mark Devine to some of his techniques to unbeatable mind. Even Spartan racing and a lot of the things that you and I have in common are brought us together, so I have I've flown since I was a kid and I've flown very frequently as a as a business person. And then four years ago sitting on a regional jet. They closed the door and I just freaked out and felt I couldn't breathe. First time it's ever happened to me and I was the guy that was like, hey, sorry, let me off this plane. And after that, I went I went looking for I don't know what I searched, but you know what? What is going on? What happened physiologically? What happened mentally? Am I looking for mental toughness? Am I looking for something physical? And it's led me down a whole path. A lot of which and this may be some of where you're headed in terms of a toolset is I'm almost, I think, exactly a year younger than you. Coming up on 48 years old, I am just now learning to breathe for the first time in my life.

Patrick:
That's so important. You know that the breath has a direct connection to the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. And and so that's that's definitely, Michael, part of my platform, part of what what I call the base methodology in

Michael:
As

Patrick:
The in the book. It's an acronym,

Michael:
Far

Patrick:
Bamc. And the B

Michael:
Away

Patrick:
Is for breathing.

Michael:
As

Patrick:
And

Michael:
A

Patrick:
And the

Michael:
Race

Patrick:
Reason

Michael:
Away.

Patrick:
Being that the physiology behind it. Again, this is why. So it is you see the book, you'll you'll notice that there's personal stories, both mine and other peoples. And then there is the science behind why and how things worked and how it happened. And the breathing is is such a great example, because I use athletes as as a perfect example, because if you're David Ortiz in the bottom of the ninth, seventh game of the World Series with millions of people watching, your heart rate is is super high. It's, you know, 130 hundred forty beats per minute. And if you or I or one of your listeners

Michael:
These kids

Patrick:
Get

Michael:
Get

Patrick:
Scared

Michael:
Scared.

Patrick:
Right now, our heart rate's going

Michael:
She

Patrick:
To shoot up 130

Michael:
Meets

Patrick:
Hundred forty beats per minute. Now,

Michael:
Every.

Patrick:
If we're able to breathe,

Michael:
Maybe we

Patrick:
We

Michael:
Can

Patrick:
Can change

Michael:
See

Patrick:
The heart

Michael:
That

Patrick:
Rate, heart rate from an erratic heartbeat,

Michael:
This

Patrick:
Which

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
If you look

Michael:
Going

Patrick:
At an

Michael:
To be

Patrick:
Ekg, would

Michael:
Released,

Patrick:
Basically

Michael:
Maybe.

Patrick:
Look like the silhouette of a mountain range. And and there's, you know, big changes and big differences. Once you learn how to breathe, you can literally change the heart rate from that erratic heart rate to a coherent heart rate, which looks like a nice steady pattern, the same distance between each peak and valley. And really a huge difference. And that's just from the breathing. So that's a tool that everyone should have in their in their tool bag. And as you do the as you get used to the sensations of fear, as you skip air yourself every day and you start to get

Michael:
Here

Patrick:
Used to that feeling and

Michael:
In

Patrick:
And

Michael:
This,

Patrick:
Start to understand that

Michael:
These

Patrick:
These

Michael:
Changes

Patrick:
Changes

Michael:
Are

Patrick:
Are

Michael:
Taking

Patrick:
Taking place

Michael:
Place

Patrick:
In your body

Michael:
Because

Patrick:
Because

Michael:
Have

Patrick:
Of that 2

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Million

Michael:
See their

Patrick:
Year old

Michael:
Own

Patrick:
Piece

Michael:
Faces.

Patrick:
Of software. It's OK. It's

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Going

Michael:
Going

Patrick:
To

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Feel

Michael:
Happen.

Patrick:
Like it does now and it feels

Michael:
It

Patrick:
That

Michael:
May

Patrick:
Way. You know, when you

Michael:
Be

Patrick:
Go ask

Michael:
That

Patrick:
That hot girl at the gym out

Michael:
They

Patrick:
For a day,

Michael:
May

Patrick:
When you stand

Michael:
Stand.

Patrick:
Up at lunch at work

Michael:
Can

Patrick:
And

Michael:
We

Patrick:
You make

Michael:
Make

Patrick:
A

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Toast

Michael:
Deal

Patrick:
When

Michael:
With

Patrick:
You

Michael:
You?

Patrick:
Watch a scary movie at night, you know, you don't have to be jumping

Michael:
We

Patrick:
Out of a plane

Michael:
Need

Patrick:
To

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Get

Michael:
Get

Patrick:
That

Michael:
Their reaction.

Patrick:
Reaction. You

Michael:
We just

Patrick:
Just have

Michael:
Have

Patrick:
To

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Do

Michael:
Do

Patrick:
Something

Michael:
Some

Patrick:
That gets

Michael:
Getting.

Patrick:
You out of your comfort zone. And then you start to feel that now that the other gland I mentioned

Michael:
To

Patrick:
There, two two

Michael:
Two

Patrick:
Really important glands in the

Michael:
Things

Patrick:
Brain, the amygdala is one

Michael:
You.

Patrick:
Of them. The other is one that almost no one has heard of. One because it's so difficult to

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
Say it's a sub

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
Genial anterior

Michael:
Si.

Patrick:
Cerebral cortex or SGA Ceecee in the SGA, Ceecee is the Courage Center and it's a center of good emotions in the center of courage. And there's a great study from the University of ISRO Israel four or five years ago where they had people who were scared of snakes get into an MRI machine and either move a snake towards them or move it away from them. And they watch their brains and the people who got in the MRI tube and became terrified of the snakes and couldn't control it. Their amygdala lit up like a Christmas tree. The fascinating thing is the other people and all these people before the test, they admitted they were chosen because they said they were afraid of snakes. And all the people who who became

Michael:
They can't

Patrick:
Courageous,

Michael:
Really religious make

Patrick:
They got in

Michael:
It

Patrick:
The tube,

Michael:
Through

Patrick:
They started

Michael:
Easy

Patrick:
Moving

Michael:
To.

Patrick:
The snake towards

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Them.

Michael:
Been

Patrick:
They

Michael:
A day.

Patrick:
They

Michael:
Maybe

Patrick:
Basically

Michael:
We

Patrick:
Had

Michael:
Could

Patrick:
An on train

Michael:
Try

Patrick:
Track

Michael:
It.

Patrick:
Near their head and the snake was

Michael:
Things

Patrick:
Sitting

Michael:
Are

Patrick:
In a box

Michael:
Still looking

Patrick:
And their

Michael:
A

Patrick:
Amygdala

Michael:
Big.

Patrick:
Lit up. And then they chose they made a decision, a conscious decision that they were gonna move it closer anyways. And in the Mignola immediately shut down and the SGA started lighting up. And it was a fascinating finding because people had you know, people were trying to figure out what creates

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Courage

Michael:
Crazy.

Patrick:
And and can we literally turn it on and turn it off?

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
And so that first

Michael:
Something

Patrick:
Study that

Michael:
Which.

Patrick:
That shows that people once there, once they understand that there's going to be a change in their body when the amygdala activates, that they can then do something and choose courage. And a big first step in that is breathing, Michael. So so you're you're you're spot on there. And

Michael:
Things

Patrick:
I think it's, you know, for your listeners, I've got

Michael:
Should

Patrick:
To I do breathing in my

Michael:
Change,

Patrick:
Morning routine. I do

Michael:
It

Patrick:
Four

Michael:
Seems

Patrick:
Or five

Michael:
To

Patrick:
Things every morning

Michael:
Me.

Patrick:
And I do breathing every night before I go to bed. So it's it's soup for important.

Michael:
Absolutely. You're a you're a Boston guy. I'm a University of Michigan guy, so I I don't know how Tom Brady does it, but that guy is he must have a heartbeat of like sixty when he's he's steering the team to to a comeback victory. He's got to have some breathing going on.

Patrick:
I'll actually give you one to Tom's. So so I know the guys at TV trucks that the CEO down there, John Burns,

Michael:
Yes,

Patrick:
Javy

Michael:
Yes,

Patrick:
And of course,

Michael:
Yes,

Patrick:
Of course, Alex Guerrero,

Michael:
Yes,

Patrick:
Who started it.

Michael:
Yes,

Patrick:
And one of the things Tom's

Michael:
Yes.

Patrick:
Been doing for the past

Michael:
Six

Patrick:
Six

Michael:
Or

Patrick:
Or seven

Michael:
Seven

Patrick:
Years

Michael:
Years is.

Patrick:
Is sitting in a float tank to do breathing and meditation exercises. And what he's doing in that tank is learning how to control his amygdala. So by sitting in the float tank where, you know, he's basically in zero gravity, he's able to access his mind and teach himself to shut that amygdala off when he wants it off and to be

Michael:
Switch

Patrick:
Able to switch that that pathway

Michael:
Things.

Patrick:
Towards courage and towards rational thinking. Because, you know, at the end of the day, Michael, there's only two ways that we make decisions in life. We either make decisions out of fear or we make them out of opportunity.

Michael:
Mm hmm.

Patrick:
If we make them fear, they almost always lead to regret and shame and guilt. If we make them out of opportunity, they always lead to growth and happiness and success and fulfillment.

Michael:
Hundred percent. Yeah. I'm definitely on that program. So in your approach and your your methodology, people learn to understand the tell's, interpret the physical, see it coming, and then you talk about that opportunity, either turning fear into fuel or or choosing courage. And I imagine that that's just it's got to take some reps, I think from my own experience, just the ability to witness that. It's like building a muscle and getting better and faster at it, too, either headed off so you don't go barreling down that adrenaline cortisol fueled rage or whatever it might be or directed a good operates a good direction. So when you when you work with a group, do you tend to. Is it repetitive? Is it a weekend thing? Is it a revisited on a regular basis type of methodology?

Patrick:
Well, so the first thing I do and I'm doing it next week in Los Angeles. Actually, they is. There's a new Marriott that's opening up in Irvine. And so there's a group of about 25 CEOs and some celebrities who are coming out to the fear seminar along with the the L.A. County sheriff. So so what I'm too hot for them is we're all going up to the top of this 20 story brand new Marriott Hotel, and I'm going to push them all off. So we're doing a rappelling thing in in. When I've done that, I've done this for a lot of CEOs through this organization, young presidents organization YPO. And. And when we do it, I stop them just when they're about 45 degrees to the wall over going over the edge. You know, it's it's their ass hanging over the parking lot or, you know, whatever is down below and and have them take an inventory there of how they're feeling. And so that's the first step of figuring out their fear tells. And that that does two things. Like you said. One, it lets them know when they've got an opportunity to act with courage, because courage only exists if there's fear. If there's no fear, you can't have courage. Courage is is acting rationally in the face of fear.

Patrick:
And it takes practice, just like you said. It takes those reps because those neurons that fire together continuously will wire together. So the more practice you have and this is that halo effect I was talking about that happened to me when I just decided to take flying lessons. I I started wiring those neurons together to the SGA Sisi to sew to that courage center in my brain. So then my default became courage. You know, when I was sitting there and instead of being the guy in the $10000 suit pulling up to the office, one hundred and fifty thousand dollar car, you know, telling everyone that we're gonna kick ass take names today. I was the guy who walked in. I said, look, you know, our D.O.D contract is up in two months. I'm not sure if they're going to renew. I'm really scared. I'm really afraid. You know, it might be the end of the company. And people were looking at me like, who the hell is this guy? And where the fuck did this honesty come from? Because we don't like it. So. So I think, you know, that the good thing about sign in your tell's and figuring it out is it lets you

Michael:
It

Patrick:
Know when you have an opportunity to act. So

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
When you get a phone call and all of a sudden

Michael:
Training

Patrick:
You feel one of your talents, you notice your job

Michael:
Because.

Patrick:
Gets tighter and your heart starts beating. You know that. OK. Well, the amygdalas trying to make the decision for me. I have a chance right now to create an opportunity

Michael:
To make

Patrick:
To make

Michael:
A decision

Patrick:
A decision based

Michael:
Is

Patrick:
On opportunity

Michael:
To this

Patrick:
Is set to do this, need

Michael:
Way.

Patrick:
To work a bit. And so that's why it's such a great indicator of when you can make life and Life-Changing decisions.

Michael:
Nice. Yeah, that sounds like an amazing training to really check in. Hang on, hang in. Forty five degrees over the edge. And

Patrick:
That's

Michael:
I

Patrick:
Pretty

Michael:
Really

Patrick:
Good.

Michael:
I've seen some of your stuff talking about the importance of vulnerability as opposed to maybe, maybe sort of fake courage in things like this big business meetings. So I don't want to you know, you're the weekend seminars and amazing and I get the Fear Institute. Go on. I don't want to give away all the secret sauce of the book, but you're a father of, I think, three. You know, for those of us who are parents, you know, looking to pass things along to help our children maybe learn some of these lessons earlier in life than than we did or whether it's, you know, you're going back in your next business meeting or you're going to spar at the gym or, you know, I'm at the start line of the next Spartan race. What are what are some actionable things we can learn for ourselves or just a couple simple things to put into practice for ourselves and our kids?

Patrick:
Well, Michael, I think you've got you know, you get a whole laundry list of stuff and love to talk to you and your listeners for a couple hours about it. But I'll start with the kids because I think that's so important. And and the more neuroscience research I did, the more I started to realize how critical it is that as parents, we do three or four very important things. And, you know, I end up I end up getting parental questions at every one of my keynote speeches. So I'm really happy to share this. When a child is born. Remember, we've got two centers of our brain, the amygdala, which handles the fight, flight or freeze, and that's just for survival. And then the SGA, SCC, which is there for courage. The amygdala is fully developed at birth. So we have the ability to fight flight or freeze. We we have fears were born with fears. We we inherit through just one generation, the fears of our parents. In some respects. And there's some fascinating new research about that as well. So you being scared of something is going to end up passing on to your kids. So that's really important for parents to know that that if they don't want their kids have the same fears, they've got to consciously do something about it. And then as as the brain starts to develop the intelligent part, the part that can make rational decisions called the prefrontal cortex, that doesn't fully develop until we're in our early 20s.

Patrick:
So somewhere between the age of 17 and 20 years old, that prefrontal cortex will develop as it develops. Other people are populating the database that's going to make up our subconscious. So we don't we don't choose what language we speak. We don't choose the color of our skin. We don't choose how many brothers and sisters we have. And because of that, those are all the things that make up our subconscious database where we make 75 percent of our daily decisions. And it's all based on these things that, you know, in thousands of years ago would've been called our tribe. So we could decide what was in our tribe and what wasn't the entire tribe. And understand when to be scared and when to fight and when to flee. That that doesn't serve us anymore. That's part of that 2 million year old piece of software. But for a kid, that's all they've got. So if you're taking your kid rock climbing, which which I did with all three my kids and started them, you know, around 4 years old and I remember our youngest, we we had all gone out for a great day of climbing. And he was he was Junior's first real big climb. And he went up and he ran up to up to climb. We were on top rope. So the anchor was at the top of the climb and the rope came back down to me on the ground.

Patrick:
And he was up there and I said, okay. Declan, sit back. Let go. And you said, I can't. I can't. The rope might not fall. I'm going to fall. It just could I could die. Right. He just started screaming irrationally. And so I did the typical Irish parent thing. I started screaming back at him right in. And I said, Declan, listen, let go of that rope right now. Are you gonna get. Nice scream when we all go out for ice cream afterwards and it starts screaming back at me. And then I said, okay, Declan will know I'm never going to take you on a family vacation again. You know, if you aren't down in 30 seconds and what I was doing was exactly the opposite of what we should have been doing, because I was I was reinforcing the emotional memory he was about to create associated with being up at the top of the climb. So I was I was encouraging his amygdala to fight me, and that's what he wants to do. He went to flee the situation. But when I put him in a corner, he went to fight. And so because he doesn't have a fully developed prefrontal cortex and because there's no connection to that courage center, the SGA, SJC, we have to do that for our kids. We have to help them fire those neurons together and build those neurons.

Patrick:
No synapses, in fact, that are going to make them occur. Agent this person. And you look at guys. So, you know, I think you'd mentioned, Michael, that I'm good friends with David Mark Devine, with Joe Descent. I've got a great Tom Brady story as well that just happened over the summer. All of us have have been vilified or gotten in trouble for the way that with for things we've done with our kids. So I was I was in the news six or seven years ago for taking my kids up. Mont Blanc and my middle child, my son PJ loves to mountain climb has been up now probably twenty four thousand metre peaks descend. It took his kids swimming in November in there in a lake near their Vermont pond. And some woman saw it and called the cops and the TV camera showed up and all this nonsense. And and three years ago, my daughter and my wife and I went and did a bike race down in Costa Rica and we went to yoga and surf. Camp afterwards in a town where Tom Brady and Gazelle have a house and Sheena Shannon and I jumped off this cliff at a waterfall like 25 feet. And this summer, Tom Brady posted the exact same clip of he and his daughter jumping off the same location. And people were giving him shit for doing it, too. So the things that you have to do to teach your kids to be courageous, to get them out of their comfort zone in our society today is is not normally accepted way of parenting.

Patrick:
But it is so critical from a neuroscience perspective that we do it. And the parents who aren't doing it are raising these kids, too, especially when it comes to boys who have issues with suicide, who have anxiety disorder, who have problems. You know, when the stakes get really high and they're older adults and they haven't learned how to cope with fear and they haven't learned how to deal with deciding between between risk and fear and opportunity and all these things. So so it's so critical that we be the the the adult supervision for a child's brain. And we put him in positions where they have to start developing those connections and in growing those synapses. So things like rock climbing, things like, you know, getting him out and and make him spend the night in the woods, you know, things like getting them up in front of people to speak publicly. All this stuff that the kids find threatening. We've got to teach them how to do it and get them out there and and be good parents and ignore what other parents who you know, who might give you a hard time about it have to say, because they're the ones who are trying to be their kid's best friend and not serving their kids well.

Michael:
You know, we've got these societal standards that I don't think anybody's really examining very, very hard. But yeah, I don't know that anybody would stand back and say, ah, our society is right where it should be right now. I'm Duffie, a big believer in right of passage type of events for kids. And there's just something about nature, period. I took my son for a week to Mt. Whitney this summer and just getting out and, you know, getting dirty and running around and fallen down and and connecting with nature. It's just something we don't get enough of these days, no matter what kind of event you might you might design for your kids. And I think these names, Jamie, we'll add an author studies Flow State and knows Mark as well. He I heard him say that when his kids are old enough, he's going to send a remark divine for for a crucible event

Patrick:
You.

Michael:
Or for a rite of passage event.

Patrick:
There you go then. And then send them to Germany, to the Fear Institute after it's.

Michael:
All right. Well, maybe I'll I'll send my son over as well. He's only been to France once. We'll get him signed up for that. Well, hey, I know we're running up against time, Patrick. And I'm really looking forward to the book coming out here early in 2020. I just pre-ordered earlier today. Where else can people find you or follow you in the interim?

Patrick:
Sure, my Web site is is P.J.s Wycombe. Or you can also go to as Fuel, which is the book website that will be up and on Instagram. I'm the theor guru and Twitter PJ Sweeney, so I'd love to connect. And if they have any questions, um, you know, I do my best on on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook. Patrick

Michael:
These

Patrick:
Sweeney as well to answer questions and help people out whenever I can, because I think that the key thing for anyone in your audience to remember, Michael, is

Michael:
Conspiracy

Patrick:
There is nothing special

Michael:
Theories,

Patrick:
About me. There is nothing

Michael:
It's

Patrick:
Special about Joe

Michael:
To.

Patrick:
Dissenter. There's nothing special about Mark Devine. There's nothing special about you. Aside from the fact that we decided to face our fear, stare it down, as Devine says, attack it is, December says, and and use it as fuel. As I say. And anyone can do it.

Michael:
Fantastic. Well, I'm really looking forward to Patrick and I will put in the show notes for this episode, links to all the ways to connect with you. And then it sounds like you're also pretty active here in the U.S. and globally with speaking events and other seminars. So is that also available through your Web site?

Patrick:
It is we've got to we've got an events page on there. There's a really fun when I did last year and,

Michael:
He's.

Patrick:
You know, literally the week after the event, they they hired me for this coming year. It's in Martha's Vineyard in June called Relentless M.V.. And I'll give them plug right now, because

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
The guy who runs

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
It is

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
This

Michael:
Si,

Patrick:
Retiring multimillionaire

Michael:
Si.

Patrick:
Financier named John Cain. And and he brought in I mean, he spent literally, I don't know, $300000 on speakers. He brought in 10

Michael:
Right.

Patrick:
At the top speakers that

Michael:
You

Patrick:
I've seen

Michael:
See.

Patrick:
From Kobe Bryant's conditioning coach to the first Canadian guy to climb Everest without oxygen

Michael:
Abc

Patrick:
And row solo across the Atlantic. And just an amazing group

Michael:
News

Patrick:
Of people. So

Michael:
Agency

Patrick:
We did some we did some fear exercises

Michael:
Says.

Patrick:
There. It's one of the few events I do that, you know, that isn't a corporate backed thing or a white the outback thing that anyone could sign up to. And I think the Web site is just relentless MDA for Martha's Vineyard. And they've got

Michael:
She's.

Patrick:
It run in and in June sometimes. So for anyone who's interested in this stuff, that'd be a great, great way to to enjoy a weekend of really self-discovery and pushing yourself outside your comfort zone.

Michael:
Yeah, absolutely perfect. I will find that one far and provide the link for it as well. Check it out myself. That sounds like that sounds like the kind of mix my wife would would sign up for. I can go do crazy stuff and she can hang comfortably somewhere

Patrick:
Yes,

Michael:
In Martha's Vineyard.

Patrick:
This is there's some. Well, you know what, they've got this this kitchen that's run at this place called Lambert's Cove and they've got this kitchen that's all organic, locally grown stuff and fresh catfish. And so, yeah, you get you know, it's not it's not like a divine experience where you're in the in the cold surf and the sand at 10 o'clock at night. By the time 10 o'clock rolls around, you're having a nice glass of wine by the fireplace with, you know, with a with the gourmet meal getting ready for you.

Michael:
That might be the way to go. You know, Mark did let me he gave us 12 minutes to eat a cold MRV at, I think five in the morning. That was 10 hours in. Yeah, it's a little a little different approach, but it's all good. Well, hey, Patrick, I'm gonna let you run. I love that you're really so deep in the science of this stuff. I'm looking forward to the book and I hope we can talk again in the future.

Patrick:
Michael, I'd look forward to it. Anytime I'm in and hopefully we'll get to do some fun. Come over to Qabbani, you know, I'll find a couple more crucible things for us to do together.

Michael:
All right, I'll be over there this summer. Count me in.

Patrick:
Awesome. Thanks so much.

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